Events of the Episode
Continuation of the scene from yesterday. There at Chawl as Madhu is coming to terms with her reality, here at RK Mansion, RK is rudely woken up from his sleep in sudden fear. Its of course juxtaposed with Madhu's shouting his name. A jolted RK. greatly disturbed sits in the dark, turns on the light and wants to take water, sees his mother sitting by his bedside. He asks the reason of her waiting. Radhaji asks him casually if he had a night- mare and that she was wondering how could he sleep after what he did. ***********Sorry, I am unable to write, I am feeling too emotional about it now as I am remembering... I am to overwhelmed. Please watch the episode******************Feel is : Emphasis is on RK and Madhu trying to move on with their lives and it is evident, its difficult for both of them. Madhu, we understand her plight and predicament, but even RK's attempt at moving on was also painful to see. His mother mocked at his attempts, he is unable to look at his face even in the mirror and all of it heightens the pain for everyone around him...wanting to rage like Radhaji the way she breaks glasses in spree to douse his son off his arrogance, his noise, his drama. He just leaves the scene scared to see his mother like that, leaving his mother panting and still angry. All of this just heightens our pain for everyone and somehow only looking at Madhu at her place away from RK and his surroundings, gives us the peace. Its like Madhu is the hurt one and yet she has peace and RK, though the one to hurt everyone, is already in hell, and if we are even 5 steps closer to him, his personal hell and his pain touches us and we feel the pain, suffocation, displeasure and we too will become demon like him...so much better if we can get away from the man...far far away ...May be Bittuji is trying to do the same. To be seen tomorrrow...
Episode Reviews
By Myself
Denouement continues ...Radhaji-RK and a hint or Bittuji-RK for tomorrow
Very beautiful episode with all right blend of colors. A very progressive feeling of things falling into place...was coming up. The two mothers in Pink, Bittuji in White, Dipali in red in the precap scene, RK in black for home clothes and brown for work clothes and Madhu in resplendent yellow and blue... Each character there in each of that color was symbolic of his or her reaction to the tsunami that had gone by, their emotions, their decisions and positioning of themselves to the persons in question.
Of course the entire episode was top class. But it like on Tuesday, when Padmini cursed him.Today, it was Radhaji....a sense of completion for me. I was expecting such emotional vent out between mother and son to happen...only that it was beyond my expectation and I was pleasantly surprised.
Although it hurt me to no end that RK conned Madhu and I cried last Tuesday (5th Feb) and since then more or less going by what they show, was deeply disgusted about the Monday episode...I was like wish I could have avoided seeing it, but then the stoic me was ,.,,,if I enjoyed good times and all times of the story, why not this ignominy, why leave Padmini and Madhu alone...let me as well see how ego and rage just takes over someone so mindlessly and senselessly and how it feels...all over again...I did not cry even on that day. I was being stoic and proud myself...holding my head high in honour and not crying. And today when Radhaji took RKs class in his bedroom and asked him and he answered and she smiled a little mockingly, to be soon angered, I had wet eyes. I was overwhelmed, because, now it was nothing about my self-esteem...now what can I lose...nothing...and when RK was not even threatening in any sense...the tears were not even sympathy for him...the tears just came out because I saw the hapless woman, who still has to continue being his mother..she cannot deny that it is her blood who did all this...where is she to go? even if she leaves, still how it not going be her blood who did this. The woman lost everything...and all she was doing was speaking up like never before...because she waited for 17 years for this...for this to see...to lose it all...and yet her mocking smile, released my emotion, because the woman decided to be there and be his tormenter and help Madhu get avenged...it was like I need to see him punished. Padmini cursed him, Madhu is choosing to forget and get indifferent (the correct reaction and decision) and Radhaji deciding to be the goad for RK on behalf of Madhu. She was like, now I want to see what happens to you. And so those tears that slipped out today were for Radhaji's conviction...the stance she took for her son and the girl whom he slighted.
Tomorrow, we are going to see Bittuji-RK and another denouement there...Not sure how it will go...but the white shirt that Bittuji put on...just as the color,...it was all about clarity.. of what matters to him now. He let his tears fall and with that tear, my heart swelled with pride. Seems he handed his resignation letter to his boss.
Madhu...in that different attire...that yellow and blue dress...was ultimate imagery of new journey, Hope, Activity, enlightenment...Personally I see it as Color of Jupiter. And yellow is visually always expansive...and that blue color,,,,,to me its staid majestic color of Saturn, who keeps showing us our limits...so a hope and yet so protected with knowledge of boundaries and limits...together the two colors are reservoirs of knowledge, a meaningful journey ahead. Madhu did not speak much, but her make-up, hair style and that dress of hers spoke so much to me. It communicated to me all her resolve...her grit and what is most important to her now...Her sruvival...and how...she wants to move on by first forgetting about it...
RK in that black T represented what black hole he was falling into with regards to his personal life...and in that brown shirt signified order, stability, normalcy and no nonsense as far as his work meant to him. I had no emotion for him today. I was just seeing him. He had his usual dialogues and they neither hurt me nor affected me...but I was all normal attention as usual. Ab woh jo hai so hai...
Best Scene of the Day
When Radhaji in competition broke 6 glasses and showed her helplessness and yet answered in full at her son's stupidity and how it was hurting her. She was just getting too impatient with his tantrums and she was like...now its my time...and when she threw that...she was upset that none of it was going to reap what she wanted and yet she had to do it. She wanted Madhu there, she cannot get it, she wanted God to do something and she has to wait, Her son was speaking in all truth to her and in such total respect and that allowed her to become like that and it was making her more angry and angry that he is truthful to her now. All of it was so irritating to her.
Best Moment of the Day
The tear that fell from Bittuji's eye and the moist eyes of him, how lovingly and yet suppliantly looking at his chief. It seemed he had no gile Shikwe (complaints, hurts) with his boss now that he decided something.
Precap...I am not even going there, Tomorrow is another day. But the colors are Red, Yellow and Blue again.
ETA:
I wrote Bittuji in White. In the repeat watch, realized the shirt's hue is pale blue. Sorry about that confusion caused. Not much difference does it make. Anyways, we will have that tomorrow again.
Responded by anastasia21
This part of the episode, you have captured it so beautifully. While watching the episode, I was only thinking that its good she is confronting him and not otherwise, fearing that she might lose him again. But they way you have put it, now I see that how agonizingly tough it must have been for her. She lost her husband and remarried for the sake of her son and lost her son in the process. For 15 years, she kept mum and essentially did nothing to bridge the gap. She was constantly ridiculed and insulted by him yet had the hopes that she'll get him back someday. Madhu arrived as that string of hope and she played her part in reconciling them.
Radha is not that of strong character. But the resolve she showed today, I was amazed to see that she had it in her. She has never been ethically wrong before but what she never had was the guts to take a stand and execute. At some point or other, we have all been annoyed with her. But as a mother and as a human being, what a dilemma she must be in right now. For Madhu and Padmini, everything is clear as black and white. But for her, how can she choose between the much coveted love and respect she is only receiving now from her son, for which she has waited this long and morally right thing to do by an innocent girl, who in every possible way filled her life with happiness and treated her with respect throughout. I don't know the correct answer because this is beyond my understanding. She can persecute her son relentlessly for an answer or an explanation or may even try to push him to do the right thing but can she ever shun him entirely? Can she give up on him or give up herself not wanting to risk losing him?
Originally posted by anastasia21
Today's episode touched me more than yesterday's.
Today was the calm after the storm. At least in Malik household. It may seem unrealistic to some that she is up and okay. But somehow my heart ached looking at her. The tremendous effort she must have put in to feign that she is okay. She wasn't crying, she was not moping, she was not complaining but she was also not faking a smile. What she was doing was so realistic yet so extraordinary. She is trying not to linger in the past and move forward, which will soon back fire but I really applaud the effort. Today was the first day of the rest of her life.
If last night was tough, the journey ahead is going to be tougher. After a big tragedy strikes, you get a free pass to break down, weep and do nothing for a certain period of time. But when its time to pick up the pieces and start afresh, that's when the real fightbegins.
I think today we saw from who RK got his temper. Good that Radha ji is not playing it safe. Instead RK's reaction was really surprising for me. So timid and mild. Was it because he now respects his mom or something else? I'm gonna go with first one since I'm taking thetrack as they are giving it. RK calling out "Biwi Chai" or missing "Madhu ki haath ki chai" were sweet but not too subtle.
Bittuji is back, visibly upset and is hopefully handing over his resignation. I knew he is the best.
Precap: Don't care. No work is demeaning.
Madhu/Drashti looked ravishing today. The wardrobe change is a welcome relief. Not only because the last one became monotonous. The yellow color on her kinda gave this new ray of hope, the beautiful morning after the storm, sunshine sunshine feeling which am absolutely unable to describe in words right now. Darn it.
Responded by SD
Ana, Same here. I felt the same.
For a person in hurt and who just wants a breath of fresh air, nothing is too fast to pick up his or her life.Sometimes it seems the resolution is too strong to look real. The tears are not there as long as we resolve and keep fighting, but they start flowing as soon as someone sympathizes with us. That feeling gives us death one more time, harder one than he actual one. IMO, the sooner Madhu finds work, distraction better. Infact, the home where she is now, that will no longer make her feel at home, its no longer a sanctity. Every minute of her amidst loved ones will make her do something for herself. Pity and Sympathy will just make it insufferable to her. Even Dipali's gloating tomorrow will be a better balm than her mother shedding tears for her.
All of this does mean that though she decided to pick pieces of her life, that is just survival requirement and not per se living...there's a difference...
Originally posted by Soundarya22
What I absolutely love about this serial is that every character gets to throw a tantrum at some point...even the house help...suddenly everybody was deaf to RK!! I loved it.
Madhu's heart rending 'RK' was heard by ... well...'RK himself. He had said himself that he sensed her presence near the farmhouse, so we have a sleeping RK being woken up by Madhu's cry. he wakes up to find Radhaji (ji's back, because she's beginning to deserve it). She asks him whether his making up at the temple was also an act, RK denies it, and says his emotions were genuine with her. She blasts him for his behaviour with madhu, and questions him...did he ever love her even for a second, through all the time that she was with him?? he looks into her eyes and says no. So she continues, he is not God to punish anyone, and time will tell if Madhu or he suffers more. She leaves.
Next morning, RK wakes up, and shouts for 'biwi', Radhaji passing by, hears him, and peeps in. He keeps yelling out for her, and then realises she's not there...chali gayi, he says. At the chawl, Madhu tells Paddy she intends to forget everything and move on in life.
Tantrum No 1: RK fires the servants for not bringing tea
Tantrum No 2: Servants make bad tea
Tantrum No 3: RK throws his cup, when Radhaji reminds him of Madhu
Tanrum no 4: Radhaji throws six glasses down, shattering them, and says just making a huge fuss, throwing things, does'nt change the truth, will not change the truth
Silent Tantrum No 5: Bittuji arrives, and stands very quietly, hands over a letter to RK, presumed to be his resignation. RK looks hurt (but I don't care too much. For some time he deserves everything he gets)
pre-cap: Dipaliii visits the very same parlour Madhu works in, and taunts her. Disgusting, but my guess is she will crow about it to RK, and make him hyper
Both RK and Madhu are trying to get back to life as it was before they met each other.
- Madhu's reaction is commendable. Her recovery is not really a recovery...it is a coping mechanism. When Bindiya chamkegi plays , they show the FB, but her eyes look devoid of any emotion, they look too clear with unshed tears. She will not allow herself to cry anymore. Kaise jeeoongi, she cried last night. She will survive though, but some vital part has died within her.
- RK on the other hand apart from the obvious...chaai leke aao...has lost the fire he had. He seems tired, exhausted after his 'pack up' with madhu. It is revenge for me right now. He has to deal with it. And he does by trying desperately...notice how he stops his mom from making fresh tea, drinks the tea with less sugar...as if he is forcing himself to live a life without 'meethas'...like he's telling himself... I will survive...would like to say a lot more but I won't.
PS: Just to indicate the practicality of Madhu's recovery, it is very easy to get a job in a parlour. If you know your job, you're on.
Originally posted by sadumaneet
Todays epi was kind of relief from back to back emotionally powerpacked epi. I never thought that Madhu's scream will reach RK it was really positive side. Right now iam just going with the face value of revenge don't want to stress myself anymore by thinking abt the same.
So madhu did come out as strong headed within one night she very well accepted facts i so much love CV's for this they really know where to stop and where to move though it is fast paced but iam loving it and even like that how RK's memory were haunting Madhu it was needed.
Achanak RK mention main sab kuch uthal puthal lag raha tha specially the noice of vaccume cleaner i was so enjoying irrited RK. Today Radhaji ne shayad bourn vita piya tha badi jor shor se RK ki baja rahi thi. But i like that it was needed someone to constantly remind RK abt his did so Radhaji is doing her part really well she also come out as such drama queen i tell u.
So its time to suffer for RK and iam really happy for that and looking forward to it.
Abt precap the less i will talk it will more better
CV's ne kya har character ke liye days fix kiye hai means monday-RK day, tuesday-padmini day, wednesday - madhu day, thursday -Radha day in that case i never want to seen Deepali day plz CV's skip her day or let her act on sunday plzzz
is that ST is really planning 1000 epi's of MB means jis speed se story move ho rahi hai aisa lag raha hai 300 epi main serial khatam kar denge.
Originally posted by Supercool3
I thought I won't watch this episode til later on, but somehow my ishq for MB is so strong And thanks to my junoon, all sleep deprivation gone
Seeing RK, I sometimes wonder where this man got his band bajaoing skills. His dad always looked so sweet in the FBs, and Radhaji had appeared so timid all this time. But WOW, she shocked me for sure !
I never thought a day would come when she would literally scold RK for something, and that too for a matter that doesn't directly affect her (Yeah, she always came across selfish to me)
But she had me awestruck ! As if the scene in the in RK's bedroom hadn't left me shocked enough, next morning was even more than that. I loved how she kept telling him that he does miss Madhu and it would so be better for him to accept.
RK being RK obviously broke the tea cup, but Radha ji. Her breaking all those glasses was so unexpected! Even RK had this look that read "What has got into my mother!"
She tackled his stupidity, fire against fire.
The way she broke those glasses reminded me of the time RK had shattered all those bottles when Madhu had taunted him for not understanding any family values back in like September. What a coincidence that Radhaji entered the show at that point as well. Quite symbolic, eh? Like mother like son !
RK's frustration today was rather entertaining to watch. Calling out to his biwi in his sleep, getting irritated at the servants for not getting the chai right - OMG, he was on a roll today as well! Had this really been revenge, he would've been celebrating. Rather, he seemed so depressed. Especially that part in the beginning when Madhu screams RK, he woke up with a jolt.
I don't believe this is pure revenge! There's something more to this. He's not the RK he used to be before Madhu entered his life! Plus, he's even taking in Radhaji's words and not reacting harshly to her!
Furthermore, he may be a kameena but he doesn't have double standards. Though I don't accept the way he had insulted Madhu at the mandap, but still, this ain't pure revenge!
and finally Madhu! I just wanted to go and give her a huge hug! She's so strong-willed and I had always loved that about her. But poor girl, she's trying to hold everything in. Especially when she saw Padmini tearing up, she quickly went and consoled her and tried to ensure that things will get better. And no, I don't feel she's moving on fast at all! For me her reaction was totally natural, especially 'cause I myself had done something like that for the sake of everyone around me. And that's how I see Madhu now. Trying to cover her pain, and be happy for the outside world. Time heals all wounds, and of course Madhu's no exception. But she'll make it out of there !
Pictorial Commentary - Episodic
Originally posted by zorica
Applause for RADHA! 
Originally posted by zorica
Originally posted by zorica
By vkk2429 -- This one spoke to me more than the first one, Zorica. As shri pointed out with the colors, it captures the inner strength even though tears are flowing out.
Originally posted by apolloartemis
Kudos to Madhu's strength- a testament to her mother and to her chaudrahin blood. But at the same time, I wonder how much of it is strength and how much of it is shock lingering. She went from screaming RK's name and wondering how she'd live without him, to affirming to her mother that she would forget about "that man" and to trust her strength to live her life anew. Perhaps in the future all that hurt will come roaring up again, and she'll do something she regrets.
Originally posted by Ananya05 IMO, it is still shock lingering. Hence, she is desperately trying to get herself busy to have her mind occupied with something. That is the first reflex which comes to you as an aftermath of a traumatizing incident. Internally, she is still tormented and battling. Right now, she has buried her real emotions and rage, by not even allowing herself to cry. Although, it might not be the best thing to do in the long run. Besides, I feel she is putting up a tough exterior also for the sake of her mother. She does not want to burden her with her grief. But her positive spirit and willpower will eventually get her through, may be after her confrontation with RK.
Pictorial Commentary - Symbolic
Originally posted by undisclosed
rk was being honest when he accepted his mama again!!!
[SD]: True
[SD]: This was the son who has accepted her. She didn't know her Rishu was actually deep inside like.
[SD]: Yeh Rishta kya kehlaata hai (What is this relationship called)
A relationship there, present, true and yet is so un-enjoyable and dead. There is no chick and hen out in the poultry, but an egg who failed to become the chick when the hen was alive and now the hen is broiled and served on the table and the egg lovingly wants to maintain the remnants of the life he has. Surreal it is for the egg with its wiry legs, but so unreal.
[SD]: Yeh woh RIshta hai Jo Hona chaahiye tha ( A relationship that should have been)
Responded by SD
True. Bottom up you have show the morbidity...an unwholesome relationship that it turned out. They used to yearn for each other...now they have each other and the son has accepted but the mother just doesn't know what to make of it situation. Subtle Syl...Very Subtle it is.
It took some time for me to absorb the second pic.
Discussions - Guilt & Shame. Is it felt by the Avenger ? and how much an Intellectual Debate is worth it
A trip to Indian Mythological stories and Indian History of Mighty Men and Warriors
Originally posted by dramacrazy12
Charu...I am more interested in his perspective if this is indeed his revenge.
Look at it this way...You set yourself a goal- you achieved your goal but you are ashamed about it.
Revenge almost always is a double edged sword- it takes a piece of both -the receiver and the deliverer. Is it possible to feel an acute sense of achievement/contentment along with soul searing shame when you destroy someone for what you believe is a good enough reason?
I digress but in Mahabharat- I have always wondered it Bhishma felt shame and regret for his role in the destructive saga. Or if Karan felt a sense of shame when he saw Abhimanyu die. Did Draupadi ever realize that her stupidity (when she mocked Duryodhana) had started all this destruction?
Did Ram ever feel a deep sense of shame that he was unable to protect his pregnant wife when he cast her off but at the same time a sense of satisfaction that he completed his duty as a just ruler?
Originally posted by Charu
superlike you post Puja
Puja, if we talk of mythology, yes, all of them felt the shame and all of them got the right "fal" for their karma...Bhishma never regretted taking a vow for the sake of his father but he did repent , the result was the destruction of his family in front of his eyes..he accepted the punishment..they called it "prayaschit" ..Karna felt a sense of shame but he cud not oppose Duryodhan..infact Karna admitted that he was wrong in supporting Duryodhan during the dice game and calling Draupadi by that name...he said his karma & dharma was to fight for Duryodhan and die for him ...he got the punishment ..Draupadi might have realized it but when everything was destroyed..she couldn't have forgiven the kauravas to avoid the war , it was imp. to bring them to justice..she was being stupid to call Duryodan blind but her punishment was too much compared to her crime...somewhat a similar case like Madhu and RK..4 slaps doesn't mean death...
Ram never wanted to send Sita away but she reminded him of his duties..toh in the end, he paid a price bec. he lost her forever..Yudhistir did a prayaschit for playing the dice game and losing his kingdom, his brothers, himself and putting his wife at stake..
in all these incidents, one thing was common...unintentional mistakes. ...therez a prayaschit for that but not for the ones which you do intentionally...like duryodhan & ravan cannot be forgiven in mahabharat and ramayan..
we cannot compare normal people with these characters bec. they were self righteous...for RK, your explanation is perfect.. you explained it so beautifully..may be we cannot justify his perspective but i'm comprehending it for the sake of my mental peace..thank u so much for it ...he will realize it soon that he lost the battle ...in the game of ego and power NOBODY wins... LOVE is also a double edged sword ...pehle his ego destroyed love, now love will destroy him
Originally posted by dramacrazy12
I had promised to write about Raavan in answer to a comment from Shri about the same ...so here it is. If you think about it both Duryodhana and Raavan were right from a certain perspective
Duryodhana was the eldest son of the eldest hier to the throne. He was from the right bloodline in an age when it mattered.He would have turned out to be a great king if he had been given a chance- he was loyal, progressive, a great warrior and born leader. His flaw was his jealousy, anger and inability to accept his lot (but isn't that all human spirit is about?). Pandavas pre-empted his right to rule by cheating (not purposely). They were not even pure bloodline. However circumstances and his growing jealousy and Draupadi's stupidity /pride was what wrecked full scale havoc to the point that the entire bloodline got destroyed.
Now about Raavan: Ancient Indian subcontinent was divided between two races -Aryans(Ram) and Dravidans (Raavan) with a strip of no man's land in between. When Ram was thrown out of Aryan world...he ended up in no man's land bordering one that belonged to Raavan. Actually Raavan might have ruled that land by proxy- depends to your philosphy and belief.
Dravidans were immensely progressive with women warriors and gave women right to propose. Shurpnakha proposed in the way that was acceptable in her culture. She might have even been trying for a treaty that way. However Ram denies her...she gets enraged...Laxman dishes out the ultimate insult. The Princess of the land was insulted by an intruder in worst possible way for something she thought she had right to...she goes and complains to her brother who kidnaps Sita and offers her marraige(he never forces her). Again it was acceptable way to get married (called Rakshas Vivah). Ram attacks and Rakshas fall not because Raavan was wrong but because he was betrayed by his brother. From Raavan's perspective he was provoked and then betrayed.
By the way once again Raavan was said to be more religious, learned, progressive than Ram. In fact his power was a cause of worry in Aryan world and amongst Gods. They needed a reason to destroy him or curb him and called him axis of evil. Does that remind you of certain countries today?
When I was young...I would argue to my heart content with My grand ma...that in the end both the wars were won with trickery and betrayals. Who was on side of truth was a matter of perspective...we believe truth won because winners wrote the history. In end she always told me that is how destiny pre-ordained it. What is curious about all this is that none of the winners ever survived or had an opportunity to enjoy the fruits of thier victory. They all lead a very miserable life too.
I have learnt that right and wrong , Dharma is a matter of perspective and circumstances and social expectations.
I apologize if I have offended anyone's religious beliefs here.
If you are interested in reading different take on these epis...you can try reading "Vayam Rakshamah" or " Warriors of Mehula " series. The name of books/series I read on Mahabaharat escape me at this point.
Originally posted by ritzy09
Awesome write up dear. The one of the very few mythological show which I used to love on telly was "Ravana". It gave a very interesting journey of Ravana - The religious righteous man who was simply denied his place amongst Devs. I do not remeber the whole series now but it was a brilliant insight into his growth and the respective Dharmas of Ram and Ravan. In the end it was time for his death and he got moksha by getting killed at the hand of Ram.
Ram was always known as purshotam - the best man - he was born to fufil his destiny and his dharam which included war and death of Ram and his brothers except one.
Originally posted by dramacrazy12
Thanks Ritzy...I have found when you strip all the veneers of so called truths and Dharma... all you see is politics...Everything is about the most base aminal instincts- Instinct to survive regardless of who we are talking about- Devas, Rakshas or humans.
Originally posted by Adhyaay-Chapter
Are you, by any chance, referring to Mahasamar by Narendra Kohli? Happy coincidence...I just began reading Mahasamar and have purchased Vayam Rakshamah, so this note of yours strikes a special chord. 
Also do read Abhyuday. Some insights there too.
Also do read Abhyuday. Some insights there too.
I did go through Gurcharan Das' "Difficulty of Being Good" which tries to understand Dharma using the Mahabharata as a base. But, at the end of the book, I thought he remained as confused as he was when he began it.
Sorry for digressing...couldn't help it.
Originally posted by SD
@bold 1
Thanks. Was waiting for it. 
@ bold 2
I am of the same opinion. Dharma changes by time you are in...so it becomes relative to everyone. One can never be completely sure that it is the ULTIMATE EDICT to be followed. When civilization started, progeny was basis of marriage. Now there is population explosion, now altruistic way of saying no more Children can help us...but will we say it ? Some have said it...some change their dharmic perspective living in the changing times of not only their country, but the world and the cosmos around us.
Hence, Geeta came up with required answers for us. Dharma to be used as guide for the actual Karma which is important.
Going on Karma...again relativity explains that my right work might have jeopardized your work in some manner...and it all may become useless and the way Arjun felt disillusioned...but again point it...God gives highter points to Karmic action done in all honesty and conviction ...as matter of faith...even if it was the most bad kind of act. Its faster way to salvation from the life of Karmic debts. God tells us ...do what you have to ...I am the one or rather Yamraj is the one who maintains the ledger of your account...there is an honest way of doing things, there is an enlightened and balanced way of doing it, there is way of doing the work as act of diplomacy, there is a way of doing it as act of fight, there is way of doing it as act of preservation and an act of resignation. What relieves your from inevitable pain is going closer to knowledge and away from ignorance. As long as you know, are experienced, all of the Karmic action is worth it.
On Rakshasas...watching movies and all...my mother and us were always...how come the Rakshas doesn't get to have the spoils when they are equally honest. The story that hurts us most is the Samudra Manthan...why Vishnu cheats the Rakshas. As a child, it really grips you.
Like I said earlier, I was not pushed into Hinduism by my parents. Yes, we grew up without any relatives on our side and just the parents...but both of them did not push us into any of that. So my first God was Ram because I read MK Gandhi said..Ram Ram Ram to fight his fear of dark. So I started praying to him. Then I read Ram abandoning his wife. I was like...what??? How can I pray him. I was a bit older then. So God ...after few more studies and lectures through school teachers, texts became an omniscient presence. He was just God.
Then I never liked Krishna, because he was not a monogamist and had so many wives. But surprisingly to the growing mind, only he seemed to have an answer.
Then...coming back to Rakshasas, was like, why there were all Shiv Bhakth and no one a Vishnu Bhakth. Knowledge of Order of Things then told me...as Preserver of life, Vishnu's Dharma is to protect Godheads and humanity and so he has to be always against Asur, even if they were more knowledgeable, honest, devotees etc. And Shiva the destroyer, then takes Rakshasas in his fold and grants them boons. And yet Shiv and Vishnu are never angry with each other. They do what they have to do. In the same Samundra Manthan Story...Vishnu is the Tortoise supporting the mountain, the gods and Rakshasas churning the ocean to get ambrosia with that snake and whatever poison is spilled, Shiva comes and drinks it to save the cosmos...and ultimately when it is time to partake the reaping, Vishnu cheats the Rakshasas. A mighty tale of Diplomacy, Organization, Coordinations, Victory and finally the crowning Glory of who gets to have ambrosia and who does not...disappointment and deceit. Everything in the world is like this. One gets to be PM and the other one gets to be nothing if it is pure deceit or sometimes a HM like Patel when India won its independence. Everyone knew Patel was more competent than Nehru...but the weaker mortal always gets to win, while the stronger an equally deserving one always loses. A tale of deceit or rather a Tale of Means to End.
Originally posted by bhakti2
Hi, everyone.
I am just quickly putting in my two cents' worth (actually, possibly worth more like one cent) on the subject of dharm, which is quite close to my heart, relativism of values, and life stories, be they tv soaps or the pillars of mythology.
I think it is useful to recall that relativism has its weaknesses as well. It is tempting to think that because times change, mores change, philosophical viewpoints and even basic practical social needs change (i.e. SD's example of he population explosion), absolute values must perforce change as well. To be honest, I am not at all sure this is true. When people write of social relativism, whether in the form of Darwinism or the more abstract sense of cultural relativism, they sometimes take the argument that "everything is relative" to its utmost end.
What you get then are the facetious types of arguments defending people like Hitler or Pol Pot for behaving in a way which, for their social milieu and context, is understandable. Not so.
If everything is relative, then nothing is true. It does not help, I feel, to nitpick the details of "who decides what is true?" at this level, a process which is otherwise critical at a less meta level. If there were not some few universal, instinctive truths, we would not be to a person repulsed by certain behaviours, whether they be real (murder in a moving bus) or fictitious (lying to someone for six months, manipulating their emotions, then crushing them under your figurative heel).
When these universal truths are set forth in the form of culturally critical stories (i.e. Ramayan, Mahabharat), we can rejoice that, in the case of these seminal itihaases, questioning does arise. One cannot submerge oneself in their truths without feeling simultaneously pricked by their ambiguities, particularly in the case of the Mahabharat wherein no one escapes some curse or blemish due to debatable behaviours, not even Sri Krishna.
But even as the customs of the historical moment change our approach to these deep stories (in fact, as times change, even the text itself changes), there is still a skeletal structure of primal morality which one can find within them, the same morality and approach to the truth that equally colours texts from other faiths.
Even something as quotidian as MEIEJ shows us the same limitations of flexibility and tests our willingness to accept amoral behaviour, even as much as we strive to see all the circumstances that produce it. We can understand Ravan and Duryodhan's motivations, in fact we can not only understand them, but even sympathise and admire them as well. We can do the same, in fact, for RK, if we are willing. Even Dipali has made mistakes which, although not necessarily forgivable, are understandable. This is an important human quality, to be able to find the good or the merely comprehensible even in the most illogical of acts.
But there is a limit to acceptable behaviour and, if you were to strip people from anywhere in the world of their culturally relative understanding, they might presently exhibit very similar morals.
So...I guess I have ranted all that to say that I disagree that everything is relative, that if you strip away all political or egoistic or historic raisons d'etre for whichever behaviours, you would come up with a moral tabula rasa onto which to apply the strictures of your time. I do not think we are so bankrupt as to be devoid of ethical wiring. So, psychopath or not, understandable or not, up against the wall or not, whatever RK is doing will not sit well with anyone, even himself.
Originally posted by SD
Bhakti,
To simplify or rather to put you at peace, let me say it this way.
Intellect is Abstract. It does not judge as it has lot of room for reason from various angles and hence Relativity.
Life is about going on. It is NOT Abstract. It is primarily Survival and tools of survival are basic instincts and when safe, think about preservation. Preservation at best is always manipulated...because there is the reality of Decadence setting.
See here in complexities start coming in...
About what you say...there should be atleast some few edicts that cannot be termed as debatable that intellectuals so lovingly would want to analyse it so abstractly. Agree.
But again ...can't help it. Look at this. King Ashoka on his ambitious path of winning over every territory...reaches Kalinga. Kalinga puts up a fight. His logic...My pride, my duty...I will stand against your might. He loses, loss of life...
Question to you....Was Kalinga wrong in defending his state against The Mighty Ashoka ? Was he a righteous king putting lot of life at stake? Was he being a prudent king ? Why was he not going by the principles of preservation for his people's sake. If Ashoka was on an ambitious path, which was wrong, was Kalinga also not proud to say NO to Ashoka? Was it warranted? What do our mythological stories have to say here? How does our Dharmic gyan help us here ?
My dear...I just close my eyes. And I think...two might men and their prides...they did what they had to do. They equally destroyed each other. Kalinga died, loss of life around him...and Ashoka devastated by the victory and looking at the dead around him. He took to the path of renunciation to gain peace of mind. He had to become the opposite of what he was before his psychological devastation kicked in.
Again I close my eyes...and what would I like to see...I want to forget the two men and the war that took its toll on everyone...but what I see is the Unified territory of King Ashoka...the objective that Ashoka had in his mind was beautiful and it was a golden era of politics and administration...the pinnacle...and on personal level...Kalinga stopped Ashoka on his ambitious path...May be God chose him to be that adversary for the unstoppable Ashoka.
Ending line...Intellectual debates done in compassionate manner never hurts anyone. Key is compassion. Compassion overrides relative positioning. What hurts is Insensitive Sophistry.
Originally posted by dramacrazy12
Shri...It is funny but when I was reading Ashoka...I was thinking RK. when I was reading Kalinga...I was thinking Madhu and when you mentioned unified empire...I was thinking masterpieces on silver screen...I am headed for asylum soon...lol
Originally posted by Soundarya22
So am I, heading for the asylum, that is. lol
Reg the Ramayan, there are various versions, and each version interprets the characters, moral ambiguities, differently. Acc to one version, think it is the Jain version, (feel free to correct me), Ravan was a noble character, 'a tragic hero, with a fatal flaw, his one transgression being his preordained passion for Sita'...(quote by N S Jagannathan, in the introduction to Kamba Ramayan)
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